Interview with Toby Jones
Learn more about Mr Bates vs The Post Office in an interview with the award-winning star of the shockingly scandalous four-part series, Toby Jones (Empire of Light, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy, Sherlock). From what it was like getting cast as Alan Bates, getting to speak with the real life hero, and more, get Jones’ insights into the moving series that has already rocked waves and heralded change in the UK.
How did you come to be cast in the show?
I was approached earlier this year by Patrick Spence, the Executive Producer, who I had worked with previously on Marvellous. I was already predisposed to it because Patrick is such a fantastic producer. He and James [Strong, Director] and Gwyneth [Hughes, Writer] talked me through the issues that [this series] addresses, which I am ashamed to say I had a scant knowledge of. Gwyneth had hewn a drama out of the most extraordinary amount of research. I wanted to do it because it’s an urgent piece of drama, so much TV today is preoccupied with our recent history, rather than what is the actuality.
What contact did you have with the real Alan Bates?
One of the brilliant features of this story is that it features characters from the whole of the United Kingdom; one of the pleasures of it [is] recognizing how multicultural and how diverse the population of subpostmasters are. I wanted to represent Alan properly in that context. I’m not playing Alan Bates. I’m playing Gwyneth Hughes’ [Writer] version of Alan Bates. I had said to Alan, ‘I’m not going to imitate you, but I need to be you enough to differentiate you, to show where you’re from and to root you in a specific context’. This was because Alan isn’t metropolitan like me, or from the south. He’s originally from Liverpool and has been living in Wales for some time. So, I talked to him about his roots, his work, the main events of his life, his routines. Secretly, I was trying to work out what drove him on, but he’s remarkably adept at obfuscating, at not giving any clues as to how he has come to do what he’s done. It’s a genuine humility that he has and there is something mysterious about that in this day and age.
What is it, do you think, that marked him out as the one to lead the fight against this huge miscarriage of justice?
It’s such a ridiculous thing to say but I think he’s unusual. By which I mean, I think he presents as a very practical man in very regular clothing, but he has a fine, fine mind. I spoke on the phone to James Arbuthnot, [the former MP for North East Hampshire who played a pivotal role in helping the subpostmasters] about Alan. James [played by Alex Jennings in the series] was very clear that it has always been a privilege to talk to Alan Bates. He looked forward to Alan getting in touch with him on every occasion because he knew he would learn something and no time would be wasted. For all of the appalling injustice and the terrible, ongoing struggle that ordinary people have been thrown into lasting a number of years, a crisis throws up opportunities for heroism. Alan Bates is a proper hero.
What did you know about the Post Office scandal before you came to this project and how did you react to what you learned?
In amongst all of the news that we hear daily, it felt like this particular scandal had been hiding in plain sight. I was aware that on occasion, I would hear ‘postmasters’ mentioned and truly, there is no other explanation for it, to my shame – I hadn’t understood the full severity of the story. I can only assume that it’s partly because when you hear ‘Post Office’, you take for granted what this institution does. There is a scene in this particular drama where there is effectively a bank robbery. I remember reading that particular scene and thinking ‘Of course!’.
In these communities, there’s a lot of money in these deliberately inconspicuous buildings that have been there for my whole life, run by people who are often deliberately inconspicuous as well. They don’t draw attention to themselves and as a result, they are truly, completely trustworthy people. It is shocking, just how appalling this scandal is. When people watch the drama, if we have done our job, it will make them see a senselessness and vindictiveness to this scandal that makes you wonder how on earth it isn’t being spoken about more.
What did it make you feel about the Post Office and their motivation in victimizing their own staff?
I kept thinking, ‘What are they defending here?’ There’s this corporate culture that seems to have evolved, that in part runs on fear and shuffling problems up to the next level, people not making decisions and not taking responsibility. This is a story of a situation like that. There is something about the way that our culture works now, which seems much more hierarchical and less horizontally-based in terms of who takes responsibility. And it remains mysterious to me but to a certain extent, people are insulated against the cruel consequences of what happens when something like this takes place.
What is a drama like this looking to achieve?
Alan is still trying to get compensation for families who have suffered huge stress and ongoing mental health issues. People say that there are around 700 Subpostmasters, but actually there are 1000, if you include Scotland and Northern Ireland, and this ongoing question of how long it has taken. It’s still waiting to be solved. The compensation scheme is supposed to close in August 2024, so whatever happens, action must take place now. We have to encourage fearful subpostmasters, who were wrongly convicted, to come out of hiding and to claim their compensation. This drama is, to a certain extent, a kind of siren to a lot of people who are terrified to declare themselves. It is also a warning to people who take for granted their safety in what we take to be venerable institutions, but actually they’ve delayed and postponed undeniable claims for compensation and restitution. One of the reasons I think Alan is so modest is that he hasn’t achieved what he set out to achieve yet, as I think he makes clear in the drama.
So, what’s the point of this drama? The point of this drama at the moment is to bring this back onto the agenda quickly. Subpostmasters and their families are traumatized and terrified and they need to come out and make their voices heard… It has taken so long to get this far but there is still some way to go.
And why is a drama like this important in a cultural sense?
On a cultural front, you make drama like this because it’s about people’s relationship with their community. Often people feel isolated or are atomized: here is a story about people coming together. The oldest Greek dramas are about a chorus uniting behind a cause, and a hero emerging from among them and taking on forces that appear to be far stronger and more anonymous and immutable. And yet the hero wins. So in a way this is an ancient story, and it’s a very uplifting story. It shows that people can talk to each other, and unite and take action. I’m very proud and relieved that they came to me because I’m honored to have anything to do with Alan Bates. Anyone who talks about it is honored to have had dealings with him. He’s an extraordinary man.
